TRANSCRIPT

Kathy Hoolahan Intro

Aunty Norma and Uncle Dan were 2 very critical characters in my invisible village.  They entered into my village at a time that they could have quite easily not accepted me into their home.  But they did.

If you are listening to Raised by an Invisible Village my story for the first time, then I sincerely encourage you to listen to previous episodes before this one – providing the context of what you are about to dive into.

Welcome to an emotionally charged episode that delves deep into a raw and candid conversation I had with Aunty Norma and Uncle Dan at their dining table. This conversation takes us back over 38 years to a series of events that had a profound impact on all of our lives.

The journey leading up to this moment was not an easy one. After over three decades of no communication, we were reunited only a few years ago, at my father’s funeral. Both Aunty Norma and Uncle Dan approached this reunion with apprehension, unsure of who I had become and the life I had lived since leaving them as a 13-year-old.

Since that funeral, we have rebuilt our relationship, forging an unbreakable bond that I cherish deeply. Join us in this episode as we recount the harrowing experiences of that courtroom drama, its far-reaching consequences, and the heart-wrenching decision made by my Aunt and Uncle to send me back to my parents.

Kathy Hoolahan (00:00):

Just want to say thank you very much for all your having the opportunity to have a conversation. It is actually a really emotional part of my life. And I know it was a really emotional part for both of your lives, but also for Kath and Robert. 

But for me, this was a such a flat period of my life. Actually a platform that helped towards a lot of my recovery for a very traumatic period of my life. So, now my journey going around Australia is being able to say thank you to all of those amazing people that were part of my invisible village. 

And of course, my father’s death allowed us the opportunity for us to reconnect after 35 years, I think, or maybe even 40 years. 

Aunty Norma (00:54):

Yeah. Which is wonderful, because it means that we can talk openly without any emotional upsets.

Kathy Hoolahan (01:04):

Yeah, yeah. There’s definitely just from my perspective, definitely a lot of gratefulness for what you guys did for me in that period of my life.

Uncle Dan (01:14):

2019 –  So it’s 33 years. 

Kathy Hoolahan (01:21):

So where are we? When was the first time you met me?

Aunty Norma (01:28):

When you got off the plane? Yep. Yep.

Uncle Dan (01:31):

Question one. Can you remember when we first met? Where, how or what? Yeah. Tullamarine Melbourne Airport. Channel? Sorry. Question two. How did I come to be living with you? And what were you briefed on? 

Well, not at all. 1986, I’d received a phone call from your father, Paddy Murphy, who was my twin brother, who stated that to his belief that he and his wife Louise had a very troubled daughter, Kathy, who was the oldest of the children. 

He explained that Kathy was rejecting their Jehovah Witness religion and was mixing with the wrong type of people and had been very seriously sexually assaulted. Your father, Paddy asked me if we could consider raising Kathy to get her away from Alice Springs. 

After talking with Norma, my wife, it was decided that we would take it in for a few weeks holidays so as to get to know her. A short time later, we were notified that Kathy will be arriving at the Melbourne Airport on a certain date and time and that she was to be in our care indefinitely. 

Being very practical types, we figured that we would probably play it by ear as we had a spare room as our son Robert, through work had moved out of home. And that will we realised that Kathy had issues with her parents all through religion, in that she didn’t want to be part of their religion. 

So we settled in as carers. Norma, had more input with Kathy as I was full time shift work and had in enrolled her in the Langwarrin in school and various other activities. 

Kathy Hoolahan (03:38):

So you hadn’t spoken to my father for what almost 30 years….. Or longer –  A lot of years. So how did you feel when you got that phone call?

Aunty Norma (03:51):

I was shocked. We were in shock.

Uncle Dan (03:55):

Well not so much shocked. Well, I know what religions can do to people. They hear it all the time. Cults. And I figured Jehovah’s Witness might have been a sort of offshoot of a cult. Yeah. Where the kids are forced to follow on. 

Do as their parent deciced whether they liked it or not. And I could see a conflict that had arisen between ya’s and we we’re heading down a bad path. So we thought we could do, what we do, or could do. And that’s probably how it all came about. 

Aunty Norma (04:38):

So as I was saying,  I was in a state of shock. Yeah,

Aunty Norma (04:40):

I couldn’t believe that. Parents could talk about their 12 year old daughter, I just couldn’t believe that they’re sending it down to strangers that you didn’t know. We didn’t know you. We just didn’t know how it was gonna pan out. Paddy had a daughter named Kathy. That’s all I knew. 

Kathy Hoolahan (05:07):

So, you got that phone call from. And then all of a sudden I’m on a plane, like, what was the timeframe from when

Aunty Norma (05:14):

Somebody probably paid a week or wasn’t long. They didn’t see social welfare or police didn’t enlighten us on how to approach you. 

All I could do is treat you the same as we treated our own children. There was no preparation. So was first thing we go.

Kathy Hoolahan (05:39):

So that phone call from my father to you, there was an indication that there had been a sexual assault. So there was a. So, you kinda got a phone call. Here’s my daughter. That’s been, mixing with the wrong. Wrong people

Aunty Norma (05:53):

Yes. He told me that it was an alleged rape. Yeah. And that’s what stuck in my claw. Could you? This is your daughter you’re talking about. I just blindsided me. 

So when you came, you poor kid, you get off that time, not knowing what we’re like. Yeah. And of course, me being emotional grab you to give you a cuddle. But you will fine you probably thought, Where am I?

Kathy Hoolahan (06:25):

I don’t remember that trip at all. That’s obviously because a lot of things have been going on. But to get off the plane and then come in strangers, but then feel connected at the same time. Like I remember that feeling. 

Yeah, and I talked about that, in one of the episodes that I instantly felt safe. And I instantly felt accepted. And I instantly felt well. 

Aunty Norma

Yeah, that was yeah, it was good. Because even I don’t remember the circumstances.

Even if I 

Uncle Dan (07:12):

just to lucky that we could fit you in. Yeah. Yeah. Put you in school. Yeah. Other activities.

Kathy Hoolahan (07:22):

Yeah. What was it? Oh, do you know? Oh, did I really see this thing? Just forgotten about?

Aunty Norma (07:34):

The horse Kathy gave you

Kathy Hoolahan (07:35):

me Ah, yeah, I remember that. That was the first couple of weeks she gave me a horse and taught me how to feed him and ride him. And yeah, that was amazing. That was pretty amazing. So some, some of my vague memories. Were getting off the plane. I remember being cold.

Aunty Norma (07:55):

You were freezing.

Kathy Hoolahan (07:58):

It was still February though. February.

Uncle Dan (08:03):

Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So

Aunty Norma (08:06):

I was very emotional.

Kathy Hoolahan (08:09):

You would have been I remember the walls of your home. And I wrote in the episode that I remembered that it was dark when you picked me up from the airport. And it seemed a long way to your house. 

And 40 odd kms Yeah, and I remember waking up and then realizing that we’re on acreage, or your house was on acreage and their horses in a big horse arena and yeah, ring. Wow. This is amazing differently in a different world. I’d grown up in and then did I start school

Aunty Norma (08:47):

on that side

Kathy Hoolahan (08:48):

straightaway?

Aunty Norma (08:49):

Oh my straightaway so it was important that you start having a normal life is so the headmistress just sketched the outside of what had gone on here you needed protection. Yeah, didn’t want all the other teachers to know your story but just to be aware that if in an emotional situation,

Kathy Hoolahan (09:14):

so what was my demeanour like

Aunty Norma (09:19):

You were quiet and a bit offish, but then you relaxed more as the weeks went by? Yeah. I think has it giving us a horse which was a big thing for her massive made you feel part of the family.

Kathy Hoolahan (09:36):

Yeah, most definitely. Now you look good. Today

Uncle Dan (09:46):

You had to pick up the horse manure. Yeah. Yeah.

Aunty Norma (09:52):

Little chores to do

Kathy Hoolahan (09:54):

But even that when you think about it, so you’re both your own children had left hand. So I hear you are taking another child after years of not being involved in school.

Aunty Norma (10:06):

But we still had Kathy, but she was working.

Kathy Hoolahan (10:09):

Yeah. And I actually don’t remember Kath being at home for a while. I think she’s. Well, she maybe she was

Aunty Norma (10:18):

two years left. Yeah. Okay. She but she was busy. You got on well, with all our now I hear that you you got bullied at school, but yeah, I saw you got on? Well, yeah, you’re in school? Yeah

Kathy Hoolahan (10:34):

Yeah, my memories of school. I mean, it wasn’t there for very long either. But I remember the early the early days, but it was also a girl that had come from a very almost remote community and Katherine to a busy city school in my eyes. 

And we never had to kind of wear the type of school uniform that Langwarrin like one school uniform was? And yeah, do you remember the early days and being called I don’t know why. 

But I was called a lesbian for some reason. But I was telling you the story the other day. My survival instincts kicked in. And come on, let’s go down the netball courts and she chickened out. And then I don’t know how I don’t know what I did with detention and how I ended up in detention. 

But I ended up in detention. And I met one of the top dogs in school and we became not friends in the playground, but people knew that we were friends, and then all of a sudden it was okay. 

We even though my dad had briefed you on a sexual assault, obviously, there was a massive gap in the events that happened on that particular night. So I distinctly remember and whether it’s just made up in my head or not, but I remember I didn’t know how long it was where there was a phone call. 

And you were brief, that it wasn’t just one event on that night. It was actually another event on that night because of forensic examination had come back. And they’re all these specimens that determined that there was some sort of pack rape that it also happened. What was the timeframe of that?

Aunty Norma (12:13):

couldn’t change probably being within within a month or within a month? And that just Paddy was very evasive and so was Louise that virtually knocked the socks off me. Their saying to me a suspected rape and then you get that information that says, No, it was really happend. But I never really found out all that went on until we’re in the courtroom.

Kathy Hoolahan (12:51):

So did you get that information from mum and dad? Or did you get that information from

Aunty Norma (12:57):

via social worker or police?

Kathy Hoolahan (12:59):

Yeah, okay.

Aunty Norma (13:01):

I think it was was the police because they were the ones that kept bringing my boss and tell me what I had to do and what I didn’t have to do.  And thats why I gave my notice but my boss said no.

Kathy Hoolahan (13:20):

We’ve talked about that quite a lot. But I think it’s also how monumental that in itself here I am someone that you hadn’t met, turn up to your door step. I’ve got all these other issues and stuff going on. And yet you were willing to resign from your job to take care of me that’s to my child

Aunty Norma (13:39):

and needed help. And our hearts just bled for you. I just could not understand. Couldn’t understand Pat and Louise Yes. And then we get little bits of information in little snippets. …So there was no whole story. And no nothing to guide as to what to do. All I could do or we could was treat you like we did Robert and Kathy. 

Uncle Dan (14:08):

You must have been a bit of an embarrassment. And I just want to do away with sort of,

Aunty Norma (14:18):

like nurturing parents that’s for sure. So many kids

Uncle Dan (14:24):

are tunnel vision with their religion. That was it, whoever was knee had to follow on or get left behind

Kathy Hoolahan (14:33):

Which also is very interesting. And obviously, I’ve had lots of reflections over many, many years. And I’ve seen other situations with other kids in similar things with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, where it’s almost like, well, you have no choice. 

Born into the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have a choice to kind of leave. If you do choose to leave. Then you’re ostracised from the family and everybody else in the religion. And because I’ve seen that without The children as like, the children then becomes someone else’s problem. 

As you know, as a parent, I just, I find that I find that really difficult to believe. But again, why I’m so fortunate that I had to build my life, why the boys, at that time of my life, I had other people that were willing, like you both support me through

Aunty Norma (15:22):

the guts to get away from. Here I really admire you.  That I really admire the way that you have turned your life around. 

Because when you got sent back to Northern Territory, I was not healthy then I was. I was a wreck. So you still could move on from there. I know you made bad mistakes

Kathy Hoolahan (15:49):

in different places.

Aunty Norma (15:51):

But we all do. Yeah. And and you finish up with two beautiful boys. And you’ve turned off right? Yeah.

Kathy Hoolahan (15:57):

Yeah, determination.

Aunty Norma (16:00):

Yeah, but not everyone’s got to go down the downward track much easier. Yeah. And see, we we weren’t social workers or trained in anyway. I mean, I was always a team manager or treasurer, the kids sporting things. 

Yeah. That’s not dealing with the problems you had. So we’re very green. Yeah. And but you responded to us? Yeah.

Kathy Hoolahan (16:26):

Yeah, traumas are. It’s an interesting thing. That’s for sure. So you, so you became then aware of these other events that happened on that particular evening? So then you were then introduced to a whole bunch of doctors and psychologists, detectives, and lawyers and police and

Aunty Norma (16:49):

That’s when I handed in my notice, because they were ringing my boss’s phone at work or wasn’t to some Medicare numbers, they somehow got his number work. 

And he’s wondering the phone. So I never knew whether it was the police or social workers adopted. Wow. And I thought, well, I can’t do both you were the priority. So let’s have a hand in the resignation. But he wouldn’t take it. 

But it was good. Because everyone at work knew that they didn’t know what the problem was, but knew there was family worries. And they were all feeling for me. Because at the drop of a hat, I’d say I’m off. 

So I was very lucky to because I had their support. Yeah. Which is just incredible. It is. Yeah, I couldn’t imagine any other manager going, oh, sorry.

Kathy Hoolahan (17:43):

Like when I talk about Raised By the Invisible Village, and I talked in one of the episodes as well, that there’s all these other people that form that they have no awareness. Saying that you have this amazing support network within your work is, yeah,

Aunty Norma (18:02):

that work extended family. There was a unique group of people that

Kathy Hoolahan (18:09):

were special. And if I did say thank you to them right now, I would say thank you. Yes. What they did for you to help me.

Aunty Norma (18:19):

I’m still in contact with a very excited that you came out the other end.

Kathy Hoolahan (18:24):

it’s turned out okay.

Kathy Hoolahan (18:32):

So, I mean, apart from dealing with all of that, we’re now on a plane to Darwin.

Aunty Norma (18:41):

That day that I just got told that I was going to Darwin with you. I can’t even remember. It would have been the police. And they said that they’ve booked this flight. And we were going to Darwin to the court case. 

It wasn’t will you come –  not if you are prepared so I just said to my boss I’m after Darwin. I don’t know for how long they told me that they will police, plain clothes police on the plane with us. 

Kathy Hoolahan (19:22):

Just beyond my memory.

Aunty Norma (19:26):

And I took us to a hotel in Darwin. Then we got on the plane to tree hop all the way to Alice Spring – I mean Katherine. And then the was one of the solicitors that was on the plane. He saying, Oh, I hate those flights.

Kathy Hoolahan (19:51):

mean like a little eight seater plane.

Aunty Norma (19:55):

We got a message that your parents were going to be at the airport And how would I handle it? Didn’t ask how you would handle it.

Kathy’s parents have got to accept that when we got off the plane, you let them know you didn’t want them there. Yeah, so they left. And then we got taken to the Motel, which was only across the laneway away from the courthouse. 

I didn’t think I needed to feel frightened, but I certainly didn’t feel frightened because we had someone there with us all the time. Yeah, the true story of what happened that night. I heard when I was in the witness box with you. Yeah. And that just devastated me.

Kathy Hoolahan (20:50):

Yeah. Yeah. It was very few things. Obviously. We were we weren’t in there for because we were I was a witness for my in case. You didn’t hear any of the other conversations that happen. 

But when a couple things that stood out for me was we were told that I wouldn’t be cross examined. And if you remember that, yes. And then I was cross examined. And because my memory I only remembered one of those incidents on the night there was a huge gap. 

I didn’t remember a lot. So then it was had I made this up and made it feel like Yeah, I did something wrong and which obviously I was 13 year old shouldn’t be on the streets a situation that kind of led up led up to that. 

And yeah, my again gratefulness that I do remember being incredibly scared. And the fact that you came into the witness box really means is even now, that makes me kind of my heartbeat feel breathless, which is it was very monumental is a

Aunty Norma (22:05):

very easy, and I felt that they were one of the policemen said they wanted to get the boys and see then I heard about it. And I was led to believe that he got off and I was really he shouldn’t have he was a grown man and I really went off cause he should have gone to Jail – and you have told me since that he did go to Jail

It makes me feel better because alright these were boys and they were really naughty. And I definitely did the wrong thing. But this fella, an adult, shouldn’t have got off.  

The police were very good to us. Yeah. And you want to go straight home. So I put us on a flight. And the flight got detoured everywhere. We were in Sydney. We’re in Queensland. Well back then.

Kathy Hoolahan (23:00):

That’s crazy. I don’t remember any of that trip

Aunty Norma (23:06):

We did eventually get home.   It was like we were bystanders. We had … even you going home? To Katherine I mean Alice Springs. 

Say I’ve told her I’ve got even you going back? I don’t remember us booking area fee. Oh, really? I really can’t. It was probably welfare. And probably Dan says it’s strange that I remember everything else. But I can. But then yeah, 

Kathy Hoolahan (23:43):

was gonna say that also would have been a traumatic time for you having to make that decision to send me back. Yeah.

Aunty Norma (23:51):

Yeah. I was just thinking the other day. I do not remember. I used to do all the booking or could do it for us. But I don’t remember that. Probably, yes. Your doctor and welfare lady who I thought was useless. 

Those she was happy as long as we were all happy but once things got to be joined. She was as helpful as a chocolate biscuit was very cool. Of course. The doctor was good wasn’t she

Kathy Hoolahan (24:32):

think was a psychologist. I do remember going into a psychology. She was a psychologist. Okay.

Aunty Norma (24:41):

But the doctor that they you must have worked for the government. Because I’ve made arrangements to see our family doc. Yeah. But she she was very good. When I was at the stage then that she said she Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was. It was hard. Yeah, it would have been incredibly.

Kathy Hoolahan (25:05):

difficult decision to make. But it was the right decision to make

Aunty Norma (25:09):

because I couldn’t. I couldn’t stop crying so hard. But just

Kathy Hoolahan (25:13):

when you put it into perspective, here, here I am, will you both someone that you hadn’t met? And all these different issues? All this trauma, going in a plane sitting in front of all of those people in court? was also when I looked back, I go, why didn’t they separate them? 

Aunty Norma (25:48):

And I want I know, all my hand was incredible. Yeah.

Kathy Hoolahan (25:55):

Do you think about that? But somewhere, obviously, I was given the comfort and safety to be able to be able to do that as well. Because she definitely

Aunty Norma (26:04):

you want to deal with your parents, which is understandable.

Kathy Hoolahan (26:08):

Yeah. I also have this moment, moments where I think, because mum and dad loved me

Aunty Norma (26:16):

nice. I just didn’t want the responsibility. Yeah,

Kathy Hoolahan (26:19):

I had, I don’t know sometimes I do think how did they feel through that? Like, it’s, I know, it’s hard again, because being parents,

Aunty Norma (26:31):

Alright. Louise,  I wrote a lot of letters, saying that she realized what she’s missing out on the love and the laughter and the fun of having a young young daughter. 

And she never answered those letters. But after I sent you home, she sent me flowers. Yeah, nice flowers, I think went into the rubbish bin. Because of means nothing to me. Yeah.

Kathy Hoolahan (27:03):

Incredible. So incredible. So during my time that I was with you did, Mum and Dad ring you guys like what was there any communication on going or remembering

Aunty Norma (27:15):

that there wasn’t any? And either I would write to them now and then? Yeah. And because why? Yeah, write to them and say that they’re missing in their beautiful daughter. Responsibility, that it’s just unbelievable. And that’s why our hearts just went out to you. It was just but I do think the powers that be should have sat down with us and explained the ride we should take. Because we didn’t know, we can only treat

Kathy Hoolahan (27:56):

the others. But there’s so many other complexities in the story of mine, right at that point time would have been difficult for anyone to really manage. When I

Aunty Norma (28:06):

did go. Paddy wrote us a letter to say that the alleged rape happened. And I took that, this is before you arrive, a couple of days before you arrived. I took that letter to my GP. And I said, I don’t know how I’m going to handle this. I said that. 

She will be going to you because you’re my GP. Yeah. And he said to me go across the road police station. So I went across roads police station and the placement regulator and he said, Get a solicitor and I said, What would I need a solicitor for this as a child get a solicitor and he said and you ring the Northern Territory. 

He said cause we can ring and they will give you all the information.

Why are they sending Kathy to us?  We weren’t getting any information.  They said, Your husband’s ex navy. Government. You work for Medicare government. You have a 21 year old and an 18 year old and never been in trouble with the police.  They know what color underwear you wear. 

Kathy Hoolahan (29:25):

would have been a bit impactful as well. That

Uncle Dan (29:29):

I worked at the Water Works, another government

Aunty Norma (29:32):

We were all government. We reared our children in Frankston and there was no privacy, even with Robert when he knocked down that post was that there was no criminal activity. Kids. He even knew he said you have been involved with the kids will always sports and they ballet. So I was shocked. They really big brother. It’s really does know if you scratch your nose.

Kathy Hoolahan (30:00):

Incredible before technology.

Aunty Norma (30:04):

Im not sure we were the right people.

Kathy Hoolahan (30:12):

You you totally were. Because I what if you hadn’t taken me in what if you took me in for a couple of weeks and sent me back? What if you didn’t come with me to court? Like, what if you hadn’t put me into school? 

Like, there’s a lot of of what ifs. . And we just clicked. Yeah. Which was just incredible. Incredible. And, yeah, so, so fortunate. In some ways, my parents were really fortunate that they were able to call someone as well

Aunty Norma (30:44):

I think they asked Aunty Ellen first and she said No. So, and that’s how we were second choice. But yeah, I was just so good that we got along

Kathy Hoolahan (30:56):

Yeah. Because, yeah, yeah, amazing. Amazing. Part of I guess, again, going back to raised by an invisible village, in, I guess a lot of the research that I’ve done in how you can move from dysfunctionality not being permanent. And I guess my life was so dysfunctional, needs to be back then. 

And my life was so dysfunctional for many years after. But in terms of being able to move through and your life becoming functional, there are three key things acceptance, belief and protection. 

And when I look back to those key people that were in my life, and you both were in a very critical part of my life, where there was significant trauma that had occurred and was happening, those three things were really evident.

Aunty Norma (31:49):

Here the old mother hen came out yeah. You just back me up or whatever….. Or said had to happen to school. And yeah, like the parent teacher when Yeah, the Italian teacher wanted to speak to me, all I cared about was your Maths, English and Science. She said to me, I just want to let you know that I have been brought up in two different worlds Australian, and Italian families. 

And I don’t know what the full story of Kathy is, but it’s obvious. It’s a different family to you. So whatever happens, just remember, I understand, and you can always come to me, because it will be true. 

Kathy Hoolahan (32:48):

There was a lot of clashing of worlds, having been a child of Jehovah’s Witness family, I guess, then six months of absolute chaos and running away to then trauma, shunned, and then seen instantly, funny, family, amazing family. 

But it would have been interesting to like, observe my behavior as a case study.I mean, this, this is probably a challenging question, but I think it’s an important question to ask. 

So in the end, what were the events that led up to you having to send me back to my parents?

Aunty Norma (33:32):

With the day after we arrived home from a court case, which absolutely shattered me. You’re going on camp with the school. So I said to the form teacher, please look after Kathy, she’s gone through a traumatic thing. Make sure the boys don’t hassle her in any way make ….because you’re attractive girl in your high school. 

So I was really terribly worried. The next day, we get a letter from Aunty Ellen telling us that you had written a letter, and that you had been having sex with this, Bruce. And you’re worried that you were pregnant. Aunty Ellen keeps a copy of every letter she writes, even to Santa. So she wrote a letter to us on the same letter to you that you’ve got to tell Aunty Norma and Uncle Dan again and you got to be honest, and this, that and the other. And I was still crying tears of trauma, the court case, worried about you and then this. So I rang your doctor from welfare and she said come in show me the letter and we showed it to her. 

And she said right, she said, I said Look, she was to have no sex, no drink, no lies… these were the only rules, we had for her and she has broken 2 of them. She said, give Kathy the letter when she comes home from camp or sit in the lounge room together and just say look, here’s a letter from Aunty Ellen, open it up and how is she going. And then you go judge by her reaction. 

So I couldn’t pick you up because I was still crying at the time. So I got your girlfriend’s mother to pick you up. And I said to her that I’ve got a bad asthma attack, I can’t go so that was a lie. And you sat on the arm of my chair, and you read the letter, and you had no reaction, no flicker of guilt, or just no reaction.

So we also were very tired, and we went to bed. And the next morning, I get woken up with my Kathie yelling at you saying to you, you’re killing my mother, you’ve got something to tell my mother, you be honest with my mother. 

So I hid in the ensuite for a while till things quietened then and then. And then when I came into the kitchen, you were gone. But you hadn’t taken the horse. So I knew that you hadn’t gone far. I think I looked for your key card and you had that. And I thought, well, I don’t think there’s much money in that account, anyway.

So then we spread out. So I guess it goes, Dan went the other way. And you were in your girlfriend’s place, standing in a street. And you’re on the phone trying to phone your form teacher. So you gave me the phone and the form teacher said to me, Mrs. Murphy, it’s not as bad as what Kathy thinks. And I said it’s worse. 

Because it was just… all the love I put into you. There was nothing. We had sex talks in the car that I never ever had with Robin, Kathie. I was more honest with you. 

So we had an appointment to see the doctor and you came. We went to the doctor. I was a bit of a mess, because I’d been in the house and be crying. And then I’d settle myself down and come back into the house. Anyhow, we saw the doctor. And she got stuck into you.

Your Aunty Norma and Uncle Dan, they’ve moved heaven and earth for you and look what you’ve done. You were crying, crying like mad. 

So she went outside to get some more tissues. And you stop crying. And you said, can I go to the showr? And I said no. 

And I think that’s when I grounded you. And I said no, your grounded and you said for how long? I said till you’re 30. But then the doctor said she’s got to go back.

Kathy Hoolahan (38:19):

I hadn’t lived through all of all of that. So.

Aunty Norma (38:24):

And I think it was just me I trusted so much. And so emotional effort for it all to happen. 

Kathy Hoolahan (38:42):

Oh, no, don’t be sorry. I’m emotional. Because I mean, I don’t remember when we had this conversation the other day about some of those things, and I had no recollection around at all.

Aunty Norma (38:53):

I’m surprised you didn’t remember us going back to my hotel. And you were sobbing and I’m hanging on to you with your sobbing and sobbing and sobbing. And all of a sudden I stopped crying and it was me that was sobbing, not you. 

So that’s yeah, it gives you an idea of the emotion when we went through that court case. I said just disgusted

Kathy Hoolahan (39:21):

I’m so sorry. But to the finale of why you needed to make that decision, which was the absolute right decision. I was this troubled little girl that still had the next phase of her life to kind of get through but it…

Aunty Norma (39:41):

It puts you in with that other  couple that were social workers. That’s what you really should have had, probably instead of us, because they would know the mood swings or how to handle that.

Uncle Dan (39:57):

Just what religion can do this good. Religion and bad religion can screw people up completely. It’s indoctrinated  for years.

Kathy Hoolahan (40:09):

Yeah. And the other interesting thing is, the whole Jehovah’s Witness thing, people don’t talk about it. Because when you’re raised, if you start to talk ill about it, you then become what’s called an apostate. 

But people actually don’t talk about it. Which is also I guess, part of what I want to tell is the story of what it was like to be raised, because it’s a different world. 

And unfortunately, that world lead to all of those traumatic things that happened to me, but other people were impacted by that too. Which is not fair. 

Aunty Norma (40:48):

But it’s life. 

Kathy Hoolahan (40:50):

It is life and you can’t go back in. What’s happened, happened.

Aunty Norma (40:56):

But we are so proud of what you’ve come through and turned out. You got two beautiful boys and protected them. So all your experiences, the boys have benefited from because you made sure that they got the right back stop.

Kathy Hoolahan (41:18):

Yeah. But again, there’s been what if I had been put into a halfway house or a welfare home and not your home for that period of my time, because it’s, if I’d had, if I hadn’t had the deep love that you shared with me and unconditionally, especially going to court and the unconditional jumping into a witness box. Any other person, potentially wouldn’t have done that.

Aunty Norma (41:52):

I can’t imagine not doing it. 

Kathy Hoolahan (41:55):

But that’s a character of you and you both. We had that instant feeling for me, protection and acceptance because of the family. If it had been someone else that hadn’t had that, then I potentially wouldn’t necessarily have experienced that love.

Aunty Norma (42:18):

Such as experiencing their family before. And then going to his family knew how to handle situations, it was probably good for you.

Kathy Hoolahan (42:29):

Sheila and Wayne had exposure to a lot more serious, traumatized children than what I was. 

And so after, I went back to my parents, was there any closure for my parents to you both? 

Aunty Norma

Just the florall arrangement.

Uncle Dan (42:54):

We heard from Ellen that she had gone over there that you’re probably alright.

Aunty Norma (43:01):

We only heard little scrapings, bits and pieces, but I wasn’t looking for anything either.

Kathy Hoolahan (43:11):

You thought you needed to recover from your own trauma of that six months.

Aunty Norma (43:18):

So when your father died, I thought, I’m going to handle this. You must have felt that way too. Because it’s first time it seems. And we just played it by ear. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot of connection we see right from the start. But you had to go your rocky road and I had to heal.

Kathy Hoolahan (43:45):

Wow. Again, I’m grateful that out of something sad that obviously dad dying, that we’re able to reconnect.

In my own way, I’m really sad that you had to deal with 30 odd years of sadness. 

Aunty Norma (44:10):

You know, the sadness, well I could talk about it now but it started I couldn’t talk about it at all. 

He called me in the office one day and he said there’s my keys to a holiday house. 

And you think, I was so touched by that, that he would do that, to his part timer. I mean, I wasn’t assistant manager. But yes, it was special.

Kathy Hoolahan 46:48):

Thank you, Stan

Aunty Norma (46:31):

Great. Little Kathy. Yes.

Kathy Hoolahan (46:34):

Yeah. Isn’t that just beautiful? Yeah. Again, the extension of people that were there.

Aunty Norma (46:40):

People that are friends are genuine.

Kathy Hoolahan (46:44):

Grateful. 

Aunty Norma (46:45):

But we’re grateful that, I’m not the Paddy died, but we’re grateful that we’ve reconnected. At least I can see… tt doesn’t matter if someone’s saying she’s doing well, you don’t really know unless you see them in person. 

Kathy Hoolahan (46:58):

It was a short period of time, but the impact was huge. For me, obviously, with you guys, and helps you. Thank you.

Aunty Norma (47:09):

I hope it helps your story.

Thank you for being you.

Kathy Hoolahan  (47:10):

I definitely was… It’s almost like thank you is too small word to actually express how incredibly grateful that you both were in my life at such a traumatic period of my life.

Aunty Norma (47:29):

In hindsight, we we’re very glad, weren’t we?

Uncle Norman (47:36):

When we went to the funeral, we thought, we didn’t really know how you wouldl react to us, because we felt a little bit guilty because we’ve sent you back. In hindsight, we probably shouldn’t have. 

Aunty Norma (47:53):

There was a breaking point. 

Kathy Hoolahan  (47:57):

I would say, that would be incredibly difficult for you to make, that decision for many many reasons. The guilt component, it was the right decision to make. And I don’t remember ever feeling bitter and twisted. 

Kathy Hoolahan  (48:39):

I am sure that this episode may have stirred some discomfort for you as a listener. In the lead up to our conversation, there were moments of extreme uneasiness not only for me, but also for my Aunt and Uncle. 

However, what I can say though, is that having those uncomfortable and challenging conversations, especially when there is mutual acceptance, belief, and love, enables the painful moments of the past to gradually fade away, allowing a fresh start to our relationship. The conversations and moments of the past no longer need to be visited.

I genuinely hope that you appreciated the opportunity to observe our conversation. I take great pride in having the confidence and courage to introduce these remarkable individuals to you, allowing my story to unfold in an authentic and genuine way. 

I invite and welcome you into the next episode of my story, Raised By an Invisible Village, creating a safe and connected space for you and I.